Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat, and today we're gonna be tackling quite a, a big and important topic and, and certainly something that to me has proved, A challenge to get my head around as a topic, and I think it's important that we familiarise ourselves with, with new talk, but diversity is something that we, we all probably have some preconceptions and ideas as to what we know about it, but we actually don't realise what we don't know about. Diversity across our professional life and our personal life. Now, of course, it's been brought very much to the fore in recent events with with the the killing of George Floyd in America, but of course that is only one small microcosm of the world and one small example of of.

Failings of modern society, so I'm delighted today er to be joined by current BVA president Daniela dos Santos, who of course, her main theme for a presidential year is diversity within the veterinary profession. And we are sworn that our next guest who comes to us, very specially is to be introduced as following Phoebe, vet, co-founder of Beds, which is the British Veterinary Ethnicity and Diversity Society. So, guys, thanks so much for joining us.

I wonder if we could both just take a couple of seconds to, to. Introduce yourselves a little bit, but also to sort of tell people what what diversity is to you and what that actually means. Thank you, Ben.

So my name's Thebe, I'm, I'm a dairy vet, in the southwest, but I'm also the co-founder of the British Vet Neician Diversity Society. And really it's to, to support those, from marginalised groups, and to promote, diversity in the profession. So, so it's a really interesting question, then, about what does diversity mean.

So really, it means difference. And, and really there are three dimensions to diversity. So it's what you're born with.

So it can be things like sex, race, family culture, family role. It can be what you evolved to be. Come.

So your gender, preferences, relationships, lifestyle, and also your experiences. So things like where you went to school, if you had siblings or not. Basically what imprints into your life.

And what about you, Daniella? I would just follow up on, on what the says. It is about the differences between us.

And I guess my, my own personal reflection, you know, having, having that diversity is my theme shows you that I'm very passionate about it. And there is so much richness to come from the differences between us, and yet we're still in a society where many people see different differences as a threat. Or if you point out that our differences mean that you may have had an advantage over someone else, they, they also see that as an attack or as a threat when much of the time it's just a fact of the matter, and it doesn't detract from your own experiences, but others haven't started from the same place.

So I, I think diversity is a brilliant thing and it's something that we should be embracing and certainly the, you know, there are, there are many reasons for this, you know, even, even for those who really want to be quite harsh about it, even business reasons for embracing diversity. Sure, yeah, exactly. So when, when, when somebody or an organisation wants to embrace diversity, there are probably sort of 3 motivating factors.

The first one could be the business case, for example, and diverse organisations perform better, have high employee satisfaction and retention, better financial returns, and have more innovation. So for example, there are plenty of papers that have shown that diverse teams have a 33% better financial return, and it's not just the diversity, but the inclusivity, so making people feel like they are part of a team. The other case can be a moral case, so it's part of being fair, making sure that organisations are representative of society, and ultimately the right thing to do for a better society.

I suppose the final motivation or requirement is the Equality Act that became law in 2010. So it protects all people from discrimination, harassment, and there are 9 protected characters which are under the Equality Act. Of course there's a legal aspect here, but I really strongly feel that we should be.

You know, aiming for far above a legal requirement, and I'd, I would actually say that in the profession we even failed to meet, the Equality Act in, in, in many, many cases. I don't know if you agree. I think there's plenty of examples of where we have, we have failed sometimes.

Some places have failed the Equality Act.s interesting you both talk about the Equality Act, and I dare say the Equality Act is something that the vast majority of people, Maybe don't even know exists, you know, sort of in terms of any depth and detailed knowledge, you know, some people might know that, you know, that there is an equality Act and that's sort of where their knowledge and understanding, That means, but in terms of on a, you know, in, in often small businesses, how does actually, how can you go about meeting equality requirements? So, I would actually, I would actually challenge that.

I would say that most of, of society are aware of the basics of, of the Equality Act. I think, you know, in terms of let's just make it as basic as possible, looking at equal and fair pay. And, and most people know that's a fact, but the problem is it doesn't happen.

And there's a subset of society that don't accept it doesn't happen. So, and, and I think, I think if we look at our own profession, I, I think this, this aspect of the Equality Act will come in throughout this discussion. But, you know, we've generally said diversity is a good thing, right?

We, we, we're saying that there are benefits and that we should embrace it and, and, and, and it's a good thing for everybody. But we are not a diverse profession. So we're starting this conversation from, from, on a back foot, and with many members of our profession, not accepting that there is a problem.

You know, we are a profession that is only, is, is, is about 97% white. Now, that in comparison with, you know, the, the, the national, population, is completely out of kilter. When we look at, at the gender split in our, in our profession, .

In, in the workforce, we've, we've passed the 50/50 mark and the student population is heading towards 80% female. And if you look at our education levels, 24% of vets were privately educated between the ages of 11 and 16 compared to a national average of about 6.5%.

So you can see from a diversity perspective, we're already way behind. And, and I strongly believe that this is due to barriers and in some cases, The lack of willingness from from people to understand that there's a problem. I don't know what you think about barriers just to entry to our profession.

Exactly, I think what we, what we're not getting is the full choice of talent out there, and what we're saying is only people that come from certain backgrounds at the moment are good enough for vet school, which is, which is a problem. So there are barriers and it all starts from children aspiring to be a vet. 2, children achieving the grades or financially being able to get the experience required to become a vet, 2 children actually attending vet school and, and at every level, there are different barriers.

And I look at it, certainly some of the best vets I know. In terms of their, their clinical capabilities, but on their, also their ability to communicate, are, you know, they, they would be quite happy to say that they got nowhere near the assumed required grades to get into vet school because it's, it's sort of perceived as this, you have to be a high flying academic. Now, of course you need to be intelligent and have a modicum of common sense, but, but I, I wonder actually if that, you know, you have to be a high flying academic is.

Is a big barrier to to entry from people from a wider and broader. I think it's an example of systemic barriers, which are very well documented when you look at STEM subjects. So there's something called the Aspires project, which has tracked children as they've grown up, to see how they felt in in relation to pursuing careers in in STEM subjects.

And unfortunately, STEM subjects are still seen as elite subject. I think physics is, is one of the worst, but chemistry comes close. And so, automatically, because we are a STEM subject in schools, there is already this, oh, no, but it's really difficult to get in, don't you think you should think of something else?

Certainly, I can speak as coming from an inner city comp at the time, you know, no vets had had been through. They had no idea how to advise me. And so, I, you know, it took me 5 attempts to get into the vet school.

And when you, When you look at what it actually takes to get into vet school, you know, you need your work experience. That costs money. So you're already putting a barrier there for people who would be perfectly capable.

And then if you look further about, you know, filling in your personal statements or personal collections, those that go to private school will have had the ability to have that sort of support. That is an advantage, that is a privilege. And that might probably reflect why they're more successful in their applications.

And, you know, if you have personal collection, connections that, you know, your dad knows, I don't know, a local vet or, or something like that, you'll find work experience more quickly. And certainly, I feel very passionately that as a profession, the barriers are so high that we are missing out on excellent children that would make fantastic vets, because we just keep putting blockers in their way. I think so.

I think, you know, some of the, because of the popularity of the course, you do feel like are some of these expectations purely there. To prevent everybody applying for the course sometimes. And I think that's another debate, you know, whether it should be a straight A subject to get in and should we have 6 weeks of EMS to before you apply for vet school.

But, these barriers, you know, if, if it hasn't been, if you hadn't had to think twice about it, then it wasn't a barrier, and, and, and that's what we've got to realise is if you were able to go and see a practise just like that, that was a barrier that somebody else might. We've had, and so we can't assume that we're all equal and therefore getting into vet school is equally easy for everybody. And I think that's, that's the assumption and the problem is, is vets come from certain backgrounds and they only mix with people that are very similar, so it's very difficult to see something that we don't face.

Privilege is not saying that you have not had to fight hard to get to where you are, it's this, you haven't had to fight hard on the basis of one particular characteristic, and I, I certainly in recent conversations that is something that I've found. Keeps coming through that people misinterpret the use of the word privilege as offensive, it's not. It's not, people don't want to, don't want to feel like they've had an easy ride and and and that's fair enough, you know, it is hard to study, it is hard to get up in the morning and go and see practise, which we have to do.

But the problem is, is there's probably somebody who's had to do something more than that to get to the same position, or have been held back more because of something that they could not control. And, and that's where we've got to change, you know, gender, skin colour, these sort of things. And I try to have conversations with people about barriers and privilege, you know, for those.

That haven't faced the financial barrier, for example, or the the finance the educational financial barriers, they're often quite taken aback when I suggest that perhaps that is one of the reasons why they got to vet school. And one thing I hear a lot, to, actually two comments I hear a lot that I, I, I would like to address and think it'd be great to, to get your, your view on this, is that any attempt to widen it, to widen access, leads to a lowering of standards or competence. And that to me.

Totally misses the point we're trying to make. And certainly this week, I even heard a suggestion that, intelligence is primarily inherited and therefore, if you're going to private schools because you are more intelligent. And those two aspects infuriate me, because it completely misses the point.

So, I don't know if you want to, to make a comment on that. Well, I think recently I was talking to a, a vet school and in their first year exam. People who got on through an access course came top of the year.

So for me, that was all and and and the and the person who told me that was, was a senior person at the university and they couldn't believe it. And for them it proved to them that it's not, it's not, not, you know, if you get B's in a school that only ever achieves one or two people that pass, compared to a school where you get straight A stars, but actually 90% of people get straight A stars, which person has, has outperformed what they, what they were given, you know? And, and so we've got to look at it in context, the grades have to be in context of the environment that that person's in.

And by just having straight A stars, we're, we're cutting that out, you know, but somebody who's overachieved in a place that they didn't have the facilities, imagine if you did give them the facilities, which universities can provide. And they take it as a suggestion that we think they, they, they've had it easy or haven't worked hard to get into the profession, and, and that's not at all what we are saying. Definitely not, definitely not.

It's one of those things that, again, we need to, we need to think about what did we get and, and what did we have benefits of that, you know, actually helped us and, and, and, and compared to somebody else, what do they go through, and I think that's about trying to understand other people. My privilege was the fact that I was white, the fact that I'm a woman. My, my lack of privilege was my educational background and my financial background.

But I think another privilege I had is that there were role models that I could relate to when I looked up. You know, if I, if I think back to what I was watching as a child, I was seeing a mixture of white people. They were, you know, male or female But they're a mixture of white people, and I think role models really, really matter.

What do you think the. Totally agree, totally agree, they, they did a study in in the US looking at black kids and their aspirations to do sort of animal sciences and and and what were the biggest barriers, and you know, the, the, the first thing that the thing like. The thing that, the biggest thing that came up was financial, and again we have that problem, role models came up massively, so, one of the biggest aspirational factors for a young child is seeing role models and following them.

The other big thing was access to animals, so we look at a lot of communities in, in, in the UK minority communities, they live in inner city areas, so. Where are they going to get the the the chance to meet animals and get that experience? Culture came up, but I feel with, if you have a strong role models, you get that experience and such like, you can break down the cultural barriers quite quickly, especially when we're having minority, for example, when I talk about the minority side, which is my experience, we're getting 2nd and 3rd generation who want.

British culture a lot more. I, I find a lot of people use that as an excuse on why minorities don't apply for vet school, but I think that's false. And actually if we, it's more to do with the other three which are role models of financial and the getting the experience in animals.

I look at this from the privileged white male vet background. Of going, actually there are demographics of my client base in clinical practise, that have, there's a different perception of what their animals, you know, there, there's different ramifications of the relationships with their pets and different bits and bobs like that, and and that's something that I've seen a couple of times, especially when I was in the Midlands working. I, I, I never really had that understanding and grasp because it's not something that I'd ever been exposed to.

So how do we get a better understanding of what animals mean to other cultures? So I, I, I've just reflected on what Thebe said actually, in terms of, of culture as well, because I was just thinking as you were talking, the, that. Actually, perhaps, perhaps the role model privilege was more than I realised for myself, because certainly, you know, my background, when I told my family I wanted to be a vet, there was a bit of a, why, why do you want to do that?

Why don't you become a doctor or dentist? But I guess because there were those role models on television, and things like that, that, that probably. That probably influenced my family's acceptance of my career decision, but I'd never thought of it that way, actually.

Well, I remember being given a copy of James Herriot, and I, I picked it up, I read a couple of pages and I put it down and I said it's, I don't relate to any of that. And I tried, they tried to make me watch some programmes on TV and I didn't, and it wasn't any of that that convinced me to be, to be a vet, and it was really because, you know, my uncle was a vet, he came over as a refugee to this country and in East London and. I had nothing else to do with my holidays, so I used to spend time with him.

And because I got in really well with him, and he was my, he was, he was a cool uncle, basically, I wanted to be like him. So he was a vet. I want to be a vet.

But, you know, without that, would I have been a vet? No. Because, when I told my parents, they were a bit negative.

When I talk to my family, they were a bit negative, but actually it was wanting to be like him was the, the, my single biggest thing that why I became a vet. So I, I, for me, role models is, is huge. And because of me, I've now got a couple of cousins in vet schools, and their parents came to me and said, you know, the, they wanted to be a vet, is that any good?

And I was like, yeah, I'm, I'm enjoying it and stuff like that, and things are changing. And, and so they, they've gone to vet school. Comment then, then, about understanding your client's relationship with their animals, you know, whether they're pets or, or livestock.

I just think that comes down to communication. I think that just comes down to how Interact with your clients and not having preconceived idea ideas of them. Now, there is one community that I actually think in many cases, perhaps we as a professionals need to reflect on on how we interact with them, and that's the travelling community.

I think that we probably do them a disservice in in many cases in how we interact with them, and that is many ways, because I think we choose not to understand. Their lifestyle, and we choose to prejudge. And actually, if you can communicate with your clients and connect with them, you offer those those animals a better service.

And I think to me, that is a an overriding example of where I think we as a professional are failing to embrace diversity in our, in our clients. I mean, the, I don't know what you think. Mhm.

I, I think that, I think we, we fail on that front, and I feel that we fail when we have a discuss. About halal slaughter and pre-stunning, and I think there's a massive misunderstanding about what halal means and what prist means. And actually, when you see vets starting to talk about halal, it then gets into the, into the discriminatory sort of side of things.

And if we step back and actually understood what that religion was about and what it means, then actually we could have a much better conversation with those communities and. What we were in danger of is becoming anti-Islamic sort of group because we just tell them what we want and they don't understand our message and we don't understand their message properly. So I think, and, and, and, and, you know, I've, I've, I, when I, when I go to London and see, you know, there's big Somali communities and such like and you know, with the lack of diversity, where do we learn about these things?

Where do we learn about this? With diversity, are there colleagues we can talk to? Is there, is there a service that someone could refer us to?

With diversity comes that knowledge within our profession that we need to understand our clients. If we don't understand the clients we serve, we cannot best protect the welfare of the animals under their care. And so, and, and so, you know, this is a full link.

Even if there's someone listening who still doesn't want to accept the human aspect of what we're talking about, there is the animal aspect here. Because if a client doesn't trust you, if you can't communicate with them, welfare is gonna be compromised. I totally agree, I totally agree, and, and also sometimes we might see things that we feel.

You know, that they, that they don't respect animals, but actually we've got to understand them why, why they do what they do and and actually educate because I think I, I think there, there is this, you know, there's this quick judgement sometimes on, on the parts of vets to, to pass judgement on, on cases and animals and people they see in front of them. And if we just took time. To talk to people, you'll often find out there's more to it, and you may make a real difference and and I think going back to your non stun slaughter message, I think that is a really, really important one to to get across here.

. As a profession, we must not be talking about halal slaughter. We, we must not. That is not what the debate is about.

The debate is about non-stun slaughter, because if we are talking from a veterinary professional perspective, that is the animal welfare impact that we are concerned about. And actually, the vast majority of halal meat in this country is pre-stunned. And so I would, I would urge anyone listening, be careful with your language.

Because your language matters. Yeah. Yeah.

And also, we've got to remember that the sheep industry is kept up by the Muslim population, OK? So 60% of sheep and lamb products are consumed by 4% of the population. So it's important that we engage that community and talk about.

Just as a side, you know, the BVA is currently doing their welfare slaughter working group and we have had very good. Conversations and relationships with the Muslim community throughout. And, and, you know, this, it comes back to communication.

If you want to advance welfare, you have to talk to the communities involved and understand where they are coming from. But, you touched on, inclusion. And, you know, we are all, we're talking about, rightly, the, the barriers to access, and therefore, why we have a lack of diversity in our profession.

But the reality is. If we encourage diversity, which I think we should, but at the moment, we always need to have a health warning to warn people what they are facing in the profession, and we also need to work on inclusion in the profession. There's no point inviting people into our profession if they don't feel like they're welcomed or fit in.

Exactly, it's the, the cause of having diversity is fine, we want diversity. For many different reasons, OK, but if we have a number of different people who do not gel, then they will not, they'll try and avoid things. And, and so we, we, we lose cohesion, we have more people leaving, so it's not just the diversity, but it's the inclusion part that's really, really important.

And I think that's that that's the important thing that universities need to get right and practise needs to get right. And again, it's, it's, what would, what do, what sort of processes or what sort of things can we do to make sure that people feel like themselves. So there's an analogy that's always been used, you know, a party, a party where you invite everyone is diversity, a party where you make everyone dance is inclusion.

Absolutely. And you know, there is really good evidence in the veterinary sector as to why this matters. So, you know, BVA did their motivation, satisfaction and retention study that was trying to understand.

So, so we did the study to try and fix the fact that we have a retention issue, or to try and find out why we have a retention issue. And, and it was to understand the importance of vets day to day work experiences. So when we talk about lived experiences, we are, this is what matters to people and, you know, in that study, There were sort of 3 main factors that contributed to people feeling happy in the workplace.

One was the sense of being valued and admired. The other one, as you've just alluded to, the, is the sense of fitting in, and so that, you know, you, you fit in with those that have been successful before you. And thirdly, role models.

And so, there's quite clear direction there, when we talk about feeling valued and admired, that, again, the comes back to your, almost your business case, because it If you have a more diverse range of people, you have a more diverse range of ideas and ways of seeing things. So I, I, I don't know if you want to. And, and, and the thing about the business case is it only works with the inclusion as well.

So you just have a random 10 people in a room, that's it, you're just gonna perform to a probably worse than if everyone was homogeneous. But if you actually get those diverse people working together. In a way that they feel they feel empowered or they feel like themselves, you then get that 33% extra productivity and profit.

Yeah. I, I was just gonna say if we don't nurture an inclusive culture, we will continue to have a retention problem at the most basic of levels. Exactly, exactly.

I know, and, and, and inclusivity can come is, is in so many different ways, you know, and sometimes they say just paying people more doesn't always keep people at the job. And it's sometimes other things that you can do that actually are probably gonna be more effective than just paying more people more and more and more hoping they're gonna stay. Yeah, we did a survey with Simply locums last year about, you know, what sort of, what attracts you to a job, and only 20% of people was it to do with the salary.

You know, that, that was the deciding factor for, you know, 1/5 of people looking at it, for 66%, it was the team, and, and that to me speaks absolute volumes and something that we've sort of, As a profession for a long time, looked at, look, we just need to get a vet in to fill this role, or we just need to get a nurse in to fill this role or a receptionist or whoever it is, where the gap is in the practise, and it's just getting a person to put a bum on a seat rather than the right person to bring the right things in the BVI study. Pay is a hygiene factor. If you have got everything else, you know, as close to right as you can, talking about, you know, people feeling valued, feeling inclusive, feeling like they're making a difference, you know, feeling like the culture in the workplace fits with their own values, pay really does become a hygiene factor.

And I guess I've experienced that myself. I, Took a job that meant I was travelling for 3 hours a day. And yes, I took a pay rise, but the pay rise went in my petrol costs, and I did it because I felt like it was the right culture for me in the practise.

And, and that's a really, really important thing for people to take on board and. You know, we talk about that vets are underpaid, yes, we are, but are we also aggrieved by our pay because we're not happy in our workplace for other reasons too? That's it, we, we, we want to find a reason for our unhappiness, or, or, or a quick fix for unhappiness.

And it's always an easy one to pick pay, if you can't actually nail down what what it is. And 9 times out of 10, it's probably never to do with that. And I think that's something with anyone when they're looking at a job, we don't necessarily, and, and I think this isn't, I I dare say.

Maybe isn't just vets, as humans, we're not particularly brilliant at differentiating between push and pull factors with jobs. You know, what we identify is, well, I'm not happy doing this, so I'm going to go and do something else. But actually don't look at, you know, why that something else is attractive.

And obviously, you know, with that job where you were travelling for a long time, Daniela, that, that, you know, very much is something that that was a weighed up opinion going, yes, I'm travelling for further and yes I'm travelling. I'm spending more on my expenses. But, but that team makes me feel included.

That team makes me feel part of something that is making a difference to ourselves and to our client base. And that's. Well, if I, if I bring that back to inclusivity, so you know, if I, if I went to a practise, for example, and, and the practise owner said, look, we've got quality and diversity policy at this place, we've got somebody who's who's there to support quality and diversity.

You know, asks me, you know, what's, what's, religion I am or whatever, and says, look, well, we don't have to give that much detail, but says, oh, we, we like to find out more about you and we're happy to support you in anything you do that for me makes me feel like. Part of a team, you know, they care about who I am as an individual, rather than I'm part of, I have to fit in into something that they've already created and it's those sort of things that make things inclusive, you know, and I think there's not enough of that going on at the moment. I don't know how many practises actually have an an equality and diversity policy to begin with, let alone all the other things, but, you know, in this day and age when there are.

You know, people are looking for the, the right job, making it to feel like you are you are you in a job is really, really important. And presumably that's a very individual thing to the practise, that's not really something that, could you come up with, you know, a template that a practise can use for that sort of thing, but presumably that's impacted by the personalities within that as well and diversity policies there are. Organisations that can work with businesses to create them, bespoke ones it's a bit like a it's a bit like any policy though, it's not written in stone and what it needs to do, it needs to evolve, so it's almost important that the the practise, the practise has got to make the.

As a whole practise, the motivation we want to work on inclusivity and diversity, only then will it become successful. Then what it needs, it needs somebody to lead it and if it does have a policy, this policy has to be able to be monitored. And evaluated, so that it is up to date, and it's also got to be useful, it's got to be a working document, so it's got to be able to be reproducible on the ground.

That's what can help a business actually become better in the, in, in, in inclusivity and diversity. It shouldn't just be a document that we've filled in, signed, and put it in the box, and every year we just sign the bottom to say that somebody's looked at it. Absolutely, that is so important.

It, it, it, it can't just be a bit of paper that sits in a box somewhere. It, it has to be a live document. And, you know, if you work in a big organisation, there's no point having a document that sits at the top of the big organisation that doesn't philtre down to the employees.

No. And that gives the employee that that safety that the business does care. But then there's also looking after, interactions between employees and coming up with systems on how to support employees if they.

Do face problems, and, and, and, and, and supporting employees who might not know the answer, but seek are seeking help. Absolutely. And I think, you know, I think that is a good way to link into talking about discrimination, because I think, it's what I've found, you know, during the conversations that I've had as BVA president, is that the concept of inclusivity is completely, is, is completely missed, and the concept of equity and equality is also completely missed.

And, you know. You often, when you start talking about the profession and particularly gender, I'll talk about gender because that's, you know, where I come from. When you look at gender, you'll often get comments about, well, you know, it's a majority female anyway, of course, everything's fine and everything's equal and they're treated fairly.

What about the boys, what about the men? Actually, as Steve was alluding to you, you need to look beyond the numbers and the, and the words on a bit of paper, you know, we're looking at a profession that is becoming increasingly female, and yet we still have discrimination within the profession against women. And, you know, there was that, study that the BVA did with the University of Exeter to look at unconscious bias in more detail, specifically about gender, and they spoke to 260 UK based employers, partners and managers.

So basically those that were in charge of hiring people and were looking to show if they if they demonstrated any bias, when looking at the record of a male and female vet. And they were asked to review a recent performance evaluation of a vet. It was totally identical, and they were asked questions to explore their views on, you know, what they felt that that person was capable of, you know, how much would they pay them?

How much would they see them as valuable to the other team members, and how strongly would they encourage them to pursue. Promotions, would they let this vet take on managerial responsibility. So really looking at what competency and value they put on those on the, on that vet.

Now, these forms are identical. The only difference was one was labelled mark, one was labelled Elizabeth. And so, you know, that was filled in and then separately, they were asked questions about their thoughts about gender discrimination in the profession.

And of those who believe that women no longer face discrimination, they offered Mark a significantly higher salary. They perceived Mark as significantly more competent. They would be more likely to let him take on managerial positions.

They were more strongly encourage them to pursue promotions and would advise other vets to look to this vet for a valuable source of knowledge. Now, that is clear cut to me. It was an identical, totally identical piece, a total identical sort.

Person, apart from their name, and yet those that didn't think there was a problem still had an unconscious bias. Of those that did think there was a problem, the difference was less, but they did still veer towards paying Mark slightly more. It's really difficult when you then with faced with something like this, instead of accepting and going, gosh, we really need to fix this.

I've had, we've had so much pushback from members of the profession, trying to pick holes in it, and trying to say, well, it was because of this or because of that. And And that's unconscious discrimination that when it's put in front of someone's face, they're so uncomfortable that they try to pick holes in it rather than, rather than accept, hold on a minute, I need to, to think about something. So, Steve, I mean, unconscious bias is a real factor, isn't it?

It's a real factor, and it's, it's, it's not what we're born with, it's what do we, where do we get our ideas from? And, and a lot with the, a lot of the, the problems with biases. We haven't actually encountered it or seen it, it's something that we've just come up with somehow.

So what influences have they come up from? So is it something we've read, people we've talked to, things that we've learned from other people, and, and, and, and for example, you know, the, it could be that when you see a group of black men on the street, you cross the street, OK. Now, you might, you don't know them, you, you know, you might not have any black friends yourselves, but why is, why have you crossed the street?

And there's things like that, the unconscious bias, why, why do, why do you do certain things or think certain things of people and where does it come from? And the, the difficulty about it, it takes a lot of self-reflection and a lot of thinking about where that's come from and therefore how do you work to break it down. Sometimes people use unconscious bias training as a quick fix, you know, I do a bit of unconscious bias training, I'm done.

I'm not racist. Or sexist anymore, and I think that's, that's a failure. I think understanding that we have got unconscious bias is the first step to try to work to become more diverse and inclusive in our minds.

Absolutely, and you know, it sort of links back to the privilege aspect doesn't it, that when you're confronted with the fact that. That, you know, you might need to self-reflect, it becomes very difficult. But all of us have unconscious bias.

It's just whether or not we are aware of them and, and work to mitigate them. Exactly. That's it.

We all have it. It's just we need to, if we want to change, we need to understand our own biases and then learn how do we move on from that, how do we unlearn them? How do we develop as a person to break them if we can.

And I guess from, from that, you know, that gender discrimination study, and because of all the pushback we were still getting trying to pick holes in it, we at the BVA ran our discrimination in the profession survey, because we knew that what we'd found out was probably just the tip of the iceberg. And so we ran, our gen our discrimination in the profession survey, and it was the most successful piece of work we've ever done in terms of engagement. And we started with one where we just opened up and said, if you have experienced discrimination of any sort, talk to us, you know, tell us your experiences.

And, I just want to thank everyone who, who filled that in. I did, I did read them all, and. I am honoured that people trusted me enough to share their experiences with me.

But even still, there were still those in the profession that, that accused us of, you know, following an agenda and that it was a biassed piece of work, which actually, you know, on reflection, it, it, it could well have been because we were specifically seeking out people who had experienced. Or witness discrimination. So we, we set up another one where we said, OK, have you experienced or witnessed discrimination?

Yes or no? And if yes, give us some more information. And actually, the results from both were very, very similar.

So, 24% of the veterinary profession have experienced or witnessed discrimination within the last 12 months. So this was released last year. So it's slightly update now.

So that's 24% in 12 months. That is a huge number that we as a profession really need to reflect on, particularly when we, we think we're inclusive. You know, that there, there is something wrong there and then.

Even more interestingly, unsurprisingly, the most common characteristic that that people reported being discriminated on the basis of was gender. That was 44%. But second was race or ethnicity at 27%.

Now, when we are a 97% white profession, and 27% of the reports we are getting are are based on race or ethnicity, we are failing. There is a real problem there. See, this, you know, I cannot, this is not my lived experience, so, I, I'd like to hand over to you if that's OK.

So I, I just want to go back to what discrimination actually means. And there's sort of two, there's sort of direct discrimination and indirect discrimination. So indirect means an organisation puts a rule or a policy which can impact somebody based on a protected characteristic.

So, you know, the way that people, put out adverts for jobs and, and things like that. But direct discrimination simply means mistreating some treating one person worse than another person based on a protected characteristic. So it's quite, it's quite a, a big one, but then we can break it down into two little areas, so there's the.

The macro and the microaggression, which would be one, which would be probably the the the common examples. So a macroaggression would be somebody just using foul language, somebody else, using, using, using terms that are offensive to somebody, OK, and those are the sort of things that people can easily . Identify and see and and recognise, so most people in this country would recognise if what you what what certain offensive words could be used towards black people and Asian people, but it's the microaggressions that are still discriminatory, but happen daily and are probably the biggest taxing thing on a person's day to day life.

So you might. I think, well, what's, what's a microaggression. So something that I got, I get asked commonly is where do you come from?

OK, I got it asked, I got it asked in a big practise up in Yorkshire, I got it, I get it asked on farms, I get it asked by other vets, and the problem is, is if I suddenly say, well, I, I'm, I'm from Edinburgh, you know, that's where I was born, and people don't stop at that, then people say, well, where are you really from? But no, but where are your parents from? But where's your heritage?

Now, by doing that, you're othering me and you're making me feel like I don't belong here, when all my life I've been born and bred in this country, but that wouldn't happen to somebody with white skin. It only happens to people with brown or black skin. So that is discrimination, but it, it's, it's not being somebody shouting at me using offensive terms, but that's constantly making me feel like I don't belong.

That simple question, where are you really from. Now there are loads of other sort of, you know, comments that can be made, and, and, and, and things like that which they might seem harmless. He wrote it on a piece of paper, but it's the way it's the person who gets asked the question, and the number of times they get asked it, it then becomes a form of discrimination.

And if you think about ethnic minorities, you could ask virtually all of them, and I bet you they'd get asked it. And, and, and that's the sort of thing that needs to be tackled. To make us a more inclusive environment.

And, and, and I think the importance of what you're saying is language. And, and language is so powerful, and I often end up getting into circular conversations with, with people about language and its intent. People who, who will say to me, Well, I never intended to be offensive.

Well, well, that's, you know, that's might be true, but if you are being told that that language is inappropriate. Reflect on it and this we keep saying this word, don't we the reflect. We need to be more more self-reflective about how our actions impact on people.

That's it exactly, like I think the big thing is we, we all make mistakes and we've all, we've all done things that maybe, you know, we shouldn't be doing, but if someone, if the, the thing is, if you're not sure, ask. The other thing is if someone tells you, then learn from it. OK, and, and, and the final thing is to educate yourself, you know, if you've ever heard, well, someone's mentioned that that might be right, what do I do?

The internet is fine, it's there's plenty of materials, so I don't think in this day and age people can can can claim ignorance or or. Being unaware, because, you know, if, if it's the first point that it doesn't seem right, it's time to check yourself. Yeah, absolutely.

And it comes down to education, you know. So I, I was just looking back in terms of what the, what the demographics of experiencing discrimination was in our survey. And, you know, 26% was down to race.

Younger vets were more likely to have experienced discrimination and female vets. So I guess for us on this podcast, the, we can talk about race and gender. And actually, it shouldn't be my responsibility to educate someone about sexism.

Just like it shouldn't be your responsibility to educate someone about racism. Well, for example, so, you know, did I, did I bring up any discrimination that went on when I was at university? Did I bring up any discrimination that I was getting for the 1st 7 years of clinical practise?

No. Why? Because I felt that I had to.

You know, keep it in myself and just perform, and just be the best, past my best school degree and then pass my exams. So, it was only when I felt comfortable in my career that I felt that I could actually talk about me being me. The other problem with me trying to talk out is if I said.

Someone who's been racist to me, what would be the feedback from my profession and my colleagues, and the fear of being felt, of, of being basically being labelled as you're being sensitive, you're being woke, you're being, you're trying to be too PC and so it made, it goes into your shell again. So, in fact, you know, you, you've got those figures about discrimination, think about all those young vets, OK, who, who are. Do feel discrimination, who are too scared to speak up about it.

So our figures might be a lot higher than what you found. Absolutely, and just talking about speaking out, when we asked who was responsible for the discrimination, it was at 47%, it was a more senior colleague and closely behind it at 35% was a client. And so if we are not nurturing cultures of inclusivity, then can you imagine, and I'm sure Steve, you can probably, you probably have examples of this, of being in a situation.

Where a client is responsible for discrimination, and then you take it to a senior, to, you know, a more senior member of staff, and they don't support your complaint or fail to respond appropriately or ignore the problem, that is a double whammy for that person involved. Well, it's, it's what ended my, it's why I left clinical practise in the end. I, I kept taking it, I kept taking it, I kept taking it.

And then when a client refused to have me based on my skin colour and my bosses. Didn't do anything and in fact sided with the with the farmer. I not only was I distressed and felt isolated, but I, you know, I started to question my my clinical ability, I questioned everything that I had done, and it actually was a a downward spiral for a while, based on that, and, and so, you know, it's some.

If my boss had supported me that day, that is what being inclusive is all about. It's making me feel like I feel like part of the team and my concerns are important to my boss, you know. And I think I've, you know, when I, I've talked to a lot of vets, and sometimes I just see the response of I see a lot of vets facing discrimination, but because they're bosses, they feel their bosses will not support them, they hide it in.

And I do feel like it's such a shame that, you know, we've got these young vets there who are going through this at the moment, who don't feel like they can speak up because they feel like their bosses are not either aware or understand how to support them. Absolutely, that, that is a real problem. And I guess it's probably worth me just mentioning at this point that BVO are doing a good workplace working group.

Position who ISA sits on, who's co-founder of Beds as well. And there is a set, you know, the whole premise of the document, is an overarching principle on how workplaces can be good places to work, how veterinary workplaces can be good places to work. And, and there was a big thing about culture change in there and, and assessing your culture.

And I think we have to acknowledge that when we say culture, not all workplaces will be super. For every personality, you know, but there is a whole section in there about diversity and inclusion, beyond just the gender and race, you know, because there is the disability aspect, there's a sexuality aspect. There's, there's all sorts of aspects that you and I think we're not, you know, we're not in a place to discuss.

But I would urge people, ISA has been a brilliant contributor to that group and, and once that position is launched, if there are any. Employers in particular listening that want some guidance in, in terms of what we're talking about in culture and inclusion, and it's a good starting point there that will direct you to good resources as well. Sure, yeah, and I would also recommend, if people are thinking about sort of workplace culture and assessing, if you Google cultural intelligence, for example.

That's all about looking at workplaces and, and there are lots of different steps to go around, cultural intelligence, for example, which has recently been popping up, which I found quite interesting. No, absolutely. And the other thing that we're, we're currently doing at BED is, we're producing guidance on race and ethnicity for the very profession.

So really it'll be a sort of a guidebook to help, people understand a little bit more about it and ways to support students and, and vets, but it will be, race and ethnicity sort of focused at the moment. So no, I think, I, I think there is one thing that we perhaps haven't covered, because, having had these conversations before, one thing that always seems to come up when you either talk about. Diversity, inclusion, or discrimination, it's, it's, it's something that someone always says is, what about the white boys?

Always. When we talk about gender, there is an implication that the gender split is the way it is because there is discrimination against boys. And I, I think I'd like to get your reflections on, on, on my take on this.

The percentage, so the gender split that apply to the profession is the gender split that get into the profession. And so there's not an active discrimination there, and I, I, I think actually that perhaps the right question we should be asking is what about the working class boys? Because, those, those boys that have the privilege or the advantage of a private educational supportive parents may well make that.

Making the decision not to enter the profession for whatever reason, you know, they're making a decisions. But we're missing out on working class boys who don't even see it as an open profession to them. I, I completely agree.

I think, you know, it, it's the choice of the student not to apply for. So for a white boy. Middle class boy, what are the barriers of getting into vet school, you know, and the thing is, it's a choice not to apply for vet school rather than not being able to apply to, to get into vet school, for financial, animal aspirations, role models, such like, that doesn't apply if you're a white middle class boy, a white.

Working class boy, yes. OK, you might not get the animal, experience, you might not get the chance to, or veterinary experience, you might not have financial, you might, you will, you'll have financial problems maybe to, to get that experience and even consider veterinary school as an option for some people. So there are, there are barriers to that, that is true.

If we look at working class, for example, in this country, 45% are BME. So again, when we think about facts, we've got to remember there's, it's it that they're connected, they're intersectional. 4 BME working class and there's 222 sections there, or it could be a black woman, and so there's two intersections.

So, a lot of problems that it's not just when you address one problem, you don't address them by themselves. There's normally a number of problems that you can address in if you try to work to try and encourage more diversity at the same time. Absolutely, and I, I think it just highlights again, what if we go right back to the beginning of this, that there are significant, societal barriers for entry into, into vet school.

Yeah, I mean, I think we've obviously covered a hell of a lot there for anyone who listens regularly to our our 20 minute episodes. You, you may notice that this has gone on slightly longer than 20 minutes, and, and that to me really symbolises the magnitude. That the challenge that that this presents to us as a as a profession, but, but not just the challenge as an opportunity, you know, this is a brilliant, I, I still stand by the fact that, you know, the veterinary profession is a brilliant profession.

I love being a vet, but there is a lot for us to do, and actually, People from different avenues of walks of life will bring so much, in fact, I, I dare say infinitely more to the profession moving forwards, and I think for me, you know, some of the, the key take homes from this chat is that inclusive. Is, is so massively important to everybody on every level of every practise in the UK, and that, you know, it's important for us to educate ourselves, it's important for us to use that self-education to help educate others, and by doing that, we can help the profession evolve. You know, this is about taking the veterinary profession to the next level and improving it for everybody in society, and that is a major responsibility.

I guess my closing thoughts would be for, for those of you listening that feel uncomfortable with the conversations we're having, that's good because you, you should feel uncomfortable with these difficult sorts of conversations. And diversity and inclusion is not about highlighting that a certain demographic have got into the profession. More easily.

This is just highlighting that there's a challenge here that we need to address, and we all have a role to play, to listen, to educate ourselves, and to play a part in making this a better profession. And I mean, everyone. Employee, employer, clinical, non-clinical, student, qualified vet.

It's everybody's responsibility to get involved in this, to educate, listen, and play your part. Yeah, I'd like to say, I, you know, I agree with both of you, and, you know, I'm, I made the right choice coming into the profession, you know, I enjoy what I do. I'm lucky to have found, you know, I, I'm passionate about dairy cows.

I'm so glad that I can deal with them every day of the week. So, you know, I'm, I'm living the dream on that side of things. And what I think to myself is, well, if I'm enjoying it, I want others to enjoy it just as much as me.

And you know, if I can get more people in, it's like having a party. You know, you want, you want, you want lots of people, a variety of people, and I want to, I want to share what I've got and I want to learn from others, and so, you know, we can, we can make that this this this profession can be that, and it's great that it's small enough that we can all be one family, and we can actually get to know all each other. So, you know, if we, if we understand ourselves a bit more.

And therefore, and then look, and look at ways to change and improve ourselves, then we can work on improving the, the profession and therefore having something that's strong in every avenue, you know? And that will only, that'll only be a good thing. Absolutely.

And 3 years ago, this conversation wasn't being had. And I don't think the, that you and I ever thought we would be having these sorts of conversations on a, on a public forum. And so please everybody, listen, reflect and do your part to educate yourself and make the profession better for everybody.

Guys, thank you so much. I think, you know, it is, it's testament to how far we've come as a profession that we're having these conversations, but it's also then the responsibility now that we take these conversations and convert them into action. And I think, you know, thank you for everything you're doing, you know, BE, BVA, every organisation that is striving for change in their own microcosm of the veterinary profession and the wider world.

They these roles come with massive responsibility, but they also come with the, the carrot of, of massive positive change, and it's a blessing to be part of a profession that at the moment is, is really striving to make positive steps. So thank you both for everything you're doing. Good luck with everything, it's great to be included in in part of that journey and to have the responsibility of taking that on.

Yeah, thank you both very much. Could I just say that is the best conversation we've ever had about this sort of thing and thank you so much for organising it, Ben.