Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Vet Chat, and you may well have noticed a bit of a trend in topics that we're talking about in a minute, and it's very in vogue for people to consider what we do with our careers, and, you know, the different avenues that it can take us down, the the spike in people diversifying, leaving and but for me, more importantly, finding ways to stay in the profession. Has been very much in vogue over the last sort of 5 years or so, and very much obviously spearheaded by the the Facebook group Vettago Diversify, headed up by Ebony, but today I am delighted to be joined by Camilla Edwards, who has found a way to make, An art that is quite possibly alien to the vast majority of us in in first opinion practise work for her with significant investment, both financial, but also, frankly personal between, you know, going to vet school, graduating and and getting to where she is now. So Camilla, it's great to chat to you.

Now you've obviously founded First Opinion Veterinary ultrasound. Which I, I, I can't speak for everybody when I look at my own ultrasound skills. I'm, I'm relatively lucky because my wife's a paediatric cardiologist, so I know how to whiz around a probe, but I can basically go this good, that bad, which is about the extent of my ultrasound ability.

So I just wondered if you could give people a little bit of an insight and a sort of whistle stop tour about, you know, your career to date and you know, where, where you've gone down different avenues and how you've ended up where you are now. Yeah. So, thanks for inviting me on here, Ben.

That's, really kind of you. So, basically, I grew up on an ostrich farm in Essex. I hang on, hang on.

We definitely need to get into this a bit later on. That is undoubtedly a first, and I dare say probably a last for this podcast, so we'll pick up on that later. I went to university in Copenhagen.

My parents are Danish, so I went to university over there, having not got into universities over here to study vet medicine. Since leaving university in 2006, I've worked in mixed practise, small animal practise, emergency hospitals. I haven't worked in referral.

That's one area I haven't worked in. I've had 3 daughters. The oldest just started, secondary school this September and the youngest just started reception.

So it's been a busy September for me. And yeah, I'm married to a husband who's a GP. So, so that's kind of.

A quick summary of where I've got to today. Basically, I, after being in mixed practise and, and small animal practise, I realised that mixed practise was not for me, and I needed to narrow it down a bit more. And when having kids, it was difficult for me being in first opinion practise because I really lacked The continuity of care in part-time work, and I locumed a bit, and I just never felt really satisfied with what I was doing.

So I started to look into emergency shift work, and I really enjoyed that. I did that for 8 years. And, eventually got a AVP in that, but that really suited when the kids were little.

Just because, not, not so much because it was nighttime work or the hours, but more from my career perspective that I could see an entire case in one shift, from it almost dying to rescuing it, sort of thing. So there was great job satisfaction with that. So, and continuity of care is massive, isn't it?

And I think that's something that, you know, perhaps with the. Evolution of the profession over the last couple of decades, that, that's something that perhaps has been lost, to some extent for many of us, and obviously one of the big areas that we look at with that is this sort of, I, I'm always reticent to use the term de-skilling of of of GP vets. But in yesteryear where you'd have a bashing everything and you know you'd see the same client, and there were fewer practises and more vets in each practise, it was easier to sort of keep a finger on the pulse with with an individual case, but of course now there's this sort of, and, and, you know, I, I dare say in terms of an options available to pet owners, perhaps the right approach of having referral available to everyone.

But yeah, I guess that's something that that maybe jars a little bit for some people that they don't get to stuff up as much. Definitely. I think my, my first job in rural Norfolk, where I was for nearly 2 years, in mixed practise, but mostly did the small animals side of things.

And People there were not willing to travel all the way to Cambridge, you know, down the A11 to, to go to, go for a referral, and they, they wanted you to give it a go, despite you saying, I've never done this surgery before. And it was, it was invaluable for me at the beginning of my career to be allowed to have a go at stuff. And I'm not sure that new grads are quite allowed to have a go in the same way these days.

I think it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, just, just, I mean, I, I can completely empathise with the majority of those clients because frankly the A11 is possibly one of the dullest roads I've ever driven along. So I think, you know, when you, when you're stressed going in a straight line, it feels like you're driving into the horizon, doesn't it?

But yeah, it was far worse in those days because it was single carriageway, so. But I think like, I remember my first boss telling me about, like, you know, when he'd have a bash at colic surgeries in basically the garage in his house. And, and you know, you sit there, times change and of course, you know, as I said earlier, from a health and welfare point of view from.

That's good, but from a, you know, a, a new grant perspective in this day and age, it, it's, you know, part of that responsibility, of course, falls on yourself to turn around and say, look, you know, this case is here, I want to have a bash, can somebody hold my hand through it? But of course there's been this trend with loss of quite a few more experienced colleagues from the profession, so there's not necessarily that person to hold their hand all of the time, so, you know, perhaps it's something of a vicious cycle we're in, but of course, like, you know, you've got this, I mean, I can only assume that ultrasound in, in ostrich farming is, is a huge growth industry across the globe at this moment in time. So I can, I can totally see where that that interest stemmed from as a child.

So where, where did that, where did that in ultrasound come from? I guess I've always, so I've really enjoyed procedures, surgeries, any procedures. But at the beginning of my career, I remember in my first practise, someone else was sent on the ultrasound course, and it was the ultrasound machine was.

You're kind of put off using it, really, because, you were, you were told how expensive it was, what would happen if you dropped a probe, and someone else had permission because they'd been on a course. And, it was always someone else's job at the beginning, and I, I might have in emergency, picked it up to diagnose a yo, but, you know, having, having not used it on a daily basis, I was pretty scared of the ultrasound machine initially. But, but yeah, I've, I've, I've got quite a 3D brain, that's how my mind works.

So I've always thought that the ultrasound would probably be a good. Good thing for me to get into, but it was quite a few years into my career before I actually picked up the courage and thought, no, I'm actually gonna learn this and I'm gonna give it a proper go and then basically fell in love with it and. Do it all the time now.

And what, what was the tipping point, because you know, I mean like we all have our things that we find interesting, whether that's consulting, whether that is surgery, you know, whether you're wired like me and have a strange obsession with teeth and, and you know, that sort of dental sphere, you know, there's, there's things that. I dare say in this modern day that we're, you know, we can't be a master of all trades, you know, we deal with that much on a daily basis, that it's great to be a jack of all trades, but it, it, I dare say, you know, you, you physically can't be that master. But why, why ultrasound and what was that tipping point in your career where you said, do you know what, actually, I like this, I reckon I can get good at this, and I can make something out of it as a career.

Yeah, so I, I guess I had, a couple of cases that just could have benefited from ultrasound, . Emergency work. So one that I remember was a splenic torsion that unfortunately didn't make it.

But where I kind of, in hindsight, thought, oh, if I'd put a probe on there, maybe I'd have got there earlier and so that, that kind of was a big case in my head. And then And then another case where I did, I, I remember I was on the night shift and the day team had sort of diagnosed this case as a gastroenteritis, vomiting dog and, and I just had I, I just felt that the heart sounded a bit muffled and I picked up the courage to actually put the probe on, and it was a pericardial effusion. So those two cases came quite quickly after each other, and I think it just Made me think that wow, this, this is really important and this can really change lives for my patients.

Yeah. It sort of combines all the the things that I'm interested in as well, because the practise I scan at, I, I do often do procedures. So I'm often doing the pericardial centesis, and I'm doing, prosthetic wash and, you know, so I, I often do the follow-up procedure as well, which is what interests me as well.

I guess that's the big thing with it, isn't it? It's ultrasound as a standalone isn't really a thing, and, you know, it's very much a sort of in conjunction with. Sort of procedure and, and of course having that ultrasound skill, I mean I, I remember, you know, even in in years as you know, graduates and locummen around different practises, I have someone who'd come in and do scans for me you know more advanced scans, and you watch these guys and you know they're they're like, Wizards, you know, you literally, and there's this and there's this and there's this and there's this, and I'm looking at this kind of going, look, that's great, that's black, that's white.

That's what I can see here. And, and I think, you know, there's, I, I always remember that thing resonating with me when Jerry turned round to me and just went, yeah, but it's just practise. I do this all day, every day, and I enjoy doing it, and actually, you know, all of those.

Those hours of investment very much lead you to a greater capability, with that sort of thing. So, obviously you've, you've found this area of interest, and I mean I have to say, like, like many people in practise, the ultrasound machine to me was very similar to the incinerator in the basement at the McAllister's house in home. Alone where you see Kevin go down and there's this thing just kind of going high.

I was like, oh crap, I don't want to go anywhere near you. So you know, I was always very, very good at, I think, I think the, the, the in vogue word is, is delegating. And so I was very good to say, oh, is, is anybody free who could ultrasound this, because there was that inherent.

Not necessarily fear of doing it, but that awareness of my inability and lack of experience with that, and it's very easy of course in big practises to shy away from these things, but what, what is it about? That sort of You know, we've touched on that tipping point for you. When, when you've then invested in that for a period of time, where, where do you see that as being able to help other vets and nurses?

Yeah. So I, I started by, well, I was doing night shifts and, I had my old Labrador, Frieda, who's no longer with us. She used to come on the night shifts with me, and on a quiet night shift, I would get the ultrasound machine out.

I would get YouTube videos up on ultrasound on ultrasound, and I, I'd just practise. So, initially, I didn't really invest anything other than time. And I was in a, a really big practise, .

And so there was always people going off on CPD, so I would often steal their notes if they went off on an ultrasound course or whatever, and have a quick look at that. So, just anywhere I could get information from, and there's, you know, there's loads of free webinars out there on ultrasound. So I, I basically invested like that initially.

And it it sort of came to a, to a, a head. I, my youngest daughter, I've been back from maternity leave for For a year or so. And basically, I was a bit burnt out from 8 years of night shifts and 3 kids, and so, and.

Really realised that I wanted to have more control over my time and my, you know, what I was doing and being a bit more creative with my, with my skills and abilities. So, but I, I got to the point where I was reasonable at ultrasound, but I felt I didn't, I didn't have a, I didn't have a cert ABP in that. I had a cert ABP in emergency and critical care, which gave me a great grounding in surgery and medicine and procedures.

But, you know, I sort of viewed how, how, why would anyone. Want to employ me to do ultrasounds. So basically I, I.

Some time off, and I, we, my husband and I, we had planned for a year off, initially, but after 2 months, I, I knew what I wanted to do. So, so I had, I had 3 months at the Animal Health Trust, just sitting in the ultrasound room. I just asked, asked them whether I could sit there and, and they were fine with that.

And so I, I sat there watching ultrasounds for 3 months, and just picking up. Everything I could from them. They had some, some lovely people who were great at giving me extra tips and if there was time to teaching me a bit, so, so that was really useful time.

But in all honesty, I don't know whether it was necessary. I think it was, it was more for my confidence to say that I stood out a little bit more from maybe other people. And then basically, I started my, my now business, which I started as locuming.

And over the 13 years that I'd been practising, I had quite a network of friends and colleagues. So I approached them to locum for them and to, on my, my price list, I had scans as well. And a lot of places I, I locumed a bit at first, and then gradually moved into scanning, with them.

On a case by case basis. And basically that's, that's gradually happened and now it's been probably a year and a half since I've had to locum anywhere to supplement my scanning. So the scanning has sort of taken over, which is, is great and.

Word of mouth has, has travelled. But it's been a, it's been a slow process, but, yeah, it's, it's now at a place where I, I really do control my time and if, you know, it, it's, it's a bit different now because there aren't assemblies going on, but if there were, I could take that morning off if I wanted, or. That sort of thing.

I think that's it, you know, isn't it, it's, you know, you've, you've evidenced a way to, to shape what is initially, you know, a bit of hobby, a bit of fun, and by the sounds of things, Paul Frieda probably spent a large chunk of her life looking like a patchwork quilt. She, she, she was, yeah, she just fell asleep because it was nighttime, night shift, so she just used to sleep on the table. Your flight.

But you think actually, you know, obviously in terms of your own journey, there are countless vets and nurses across the profession at this minute who have fantastic skill sets and areas of interest that, you know, they would love to look at how to, to make it work for them. But you know, there's always this little. Chip on your shoulder that's saying, oh, you know, what if, and, and this may not happen, and this may not happen and of course you know as as with yourself, many people turn to locuming as a way to facilitate, you know, further education, further personal development, further professional development, and then shape the next step in their career journey, and you know, obviously you and I are both huge advocates of that particular journey, but, but what would you give them as, Tips and guidance and advice for sort of, you know, one finding that passion, and to, you know, enhancing your abilities and and making that viable as an option for you in the future.

Yeah. So I, I think in, at the beginning of my career, I, I picked CPD on what I thought were my weaknesses. And I think that's the right thing to do at the beginning.

And I went on various different courses about colic and horses, which I have no use for right now. But, but, you know, I focused on my weaknesses, and that was, that was fine initially. But when you get to a point where you, you've got a good grounding, And you, you're fairly experienced, then I think actually, the profession benefits from people focusing on their strengths and working together, using each other's strengths and knowing, knowing what each other are, are, are good at.

So, yeah, I think you can get far by, by just focusing on what, what, what you're strong at and, and making it even better. And obviously, you know, you've set up first opinion veterinary ultrasound, and you've been quite active in various different Facebook groups in terms of trying to help people, upskill people, trying to identify which ultrasound machine is, you know, useful for us as first opinion practitioners, and of course everybody has their own little nuances and ideas on things like that, you know, these aren't cheap pieces of equipment as we've alluded to, but used correctly and used frequently. They are a huge asset to us, in practise, and I have to say I never ever thought I'd be recording a podcast talking about the exciting capacities of ultrasound machines, but, but as a veterinary business and as clinicians, they are such a useful tool, but what, what's perhaps been your biggest.

I say learning through the whole experience of sort of, you know, having this idea, launching a business and then growing a business. But what, what have been the things that have exceeded your expectations and what have been the things that haven't gone as you quite anticipated them going? Oh, so lots has gone, not as I anticipated.

I, initially set up a website that was, looking to help people diversify a bit. That never took off, and I really didn't push that at all, because I saw, I actually saw you coming along, filling that, that sort of role, and I thought, no, that he's doing it better than me. And, I also I had a, a home euthanasia, branch to my work initially.

That, that's, that never took off, really. So I, I've had a lot of things that haven't worked, but I've learned a lot from each of those things and, and, and use all the information I've got from that moving forward. My, my main thing has been.

Trying to answer people's questions. So I found that because I because my husband didn't want to invest in the business too heavily. I didn't buy an ultrasound machine initially.

And I, I thought that was a huge weakness. You know, who'd want to employ me to, to do scans on, on their old rusty machine? And I, you know, I've, I've learned that actually my skills are what people want, and I can apply it.

There are limitations with each machine, but that's, that's fine. And actually, it's become a real strength because I've been asked so many times now because I use so many different machines, what machine should, should our practise get? So I, I was getting asked that quite a lot, and I just thought, well, how can I answer this question better, and be more useful for people and incorporate it into a business model.

So, I've started reviewing machines at a flat 5% commission for, for various different ultrasound companies. That means I'm getting a lot of people contacting me, and I can give an independent. Review and, and, you know, being a GP vet myself, I can understand when I've talked to them a little bit about what their needs are specifically, and, find the right ultrasound machine for them.

So. That's, that's part of a business I never thought was gonna happen, but, yeah, that's really I think that's fascinating, isn't it? Because actually, opportunity often presents itself in a way that we don't necessarily anticipate it coming to the fore.

And actually. It becomes something, you know, we enjoy and, you know, I dare say that 2 years ago you didn't anticipate yourself probably being the foremost, multi-machine ultrasound font of knowledge to the veterinary profession in the UK well and in reality, globally, because, you know, an ultrasound machine is the same in every country. I, I got to the point where I realised that actually, yeah, I probably am.

The person who has the broadest knowledge. And, and that was very, very strange to, to think that I was the one with that knowledge. But most people either use the ultrasound machine that they use, or they, or they work for a company that has a specific set of ultrasound machines.

So, yeah, it was, it was an interesting discovery. . And of course you find yourself now, 18 months down the line, you know, you're.

Now exclusively doing your, your ultrasound work. What does, what does the future hold for you in, in, in what you're doing and what, what do you? At this moment in time, what do you see is, is, you know, how that shapes up over the next few years, of course, as your kids grow up a bit, a bit more, .

So I'm, I'm having just spent 6 months 24/7 with my children. I am loving the fact that they're back at school and I've got some time to work on my projects and got some space to, to work on this. So, I'm, I really enjoy teaching.

I've, I've done some ultrasound teaching with IMV imaging on there. Corporate new grad courses. And so I'm, I'm looking to continue teaching.

I've developed some online courses for that. And yeah, I, I'm just planning to grow the, the sort of three strands that I've got going at the moment, the teaching, the reviewing, and the scanning. But, I mean, the scanning is really important because without being in first opinion practise, I kind of lose the credibility in, in the other two, I think.

So, yeah, scanning is, is number one. And, you know, we touched, we touched earlier on the fact that, you know, there is a huge trend across the profession for referral services and specialists delivering services, but of course, you know, the big. The big issue that we face is that veterinary services aren't cheap.

And, and you know, rightly so, you know, there's a lot of expertise, there's a lot of skill, there's a lot of investment that goes into us offering our services, but of course, 70% of UK pets, and you know, I think it's something like 96% of pets in the states, aren't insured. So of course, having that skill set to offer people in-house is a huge asset to any practise to be able to cater to that full plethora of clientele that we deal with. So, what would you, what bits of advice would you turn around to a.

To, you know, to a young new grad or perhaps someone who's been qualified 20 years and is looking at stuff going, oh my God, I just can't I can diagnose a pao on a good day. What, what bits of advice would you give to them to sort of, you know, one encourage them to upskill their ultrasound skills, but, but to, to sort of, you know, to, to embrace that as a as an opportunity within the day to day in the practise. Yeah, I think that, that, I think that most vets can, or should be able to.

I'm really keen that most vets should be able to not pick up an ultrasound probe in fear. That's, that's, you know. To give it a go.

And, and I don't find every, I don't find something every time I scan. It's really important that a negative finding, to have confidence in a negative finding as well. And, and, and that's, that's a really important thing.

And I think, sometimes I, I see people get so, so scared of the ultrasound probe that they forget that they actually know anatomy. You actually know where the liver is. Just point it at the liver.

You know, you do have skills and don't let the ultrasound machine overwhelm you. It, there are definitely things you can do to make an image better, and But I think it's worth, it's, it's always worth just switching it on and and giving it a go. I, I also think people are so worried about pricing as well.

They feel that they're not worthy of, of charging a client for an Oscan sound scan that they have performed because their skills are not up to scratch. And in reality, it doesn't cost the practise anything to switch it on, and, and give it a go. So I, I think the more you just give it a go and try, the more you'll learn and the more you will get out of it.

Yeah. Well, I think there you have it, from ostrich farming in Essex to the foremost global ultrasound machine expert, and I think, you know, it's, there's a lot that goes in between on those journeys, and I think certainly from both of us there's huge encouragement to anybody in the profession. Who's looking at upskilling themselves in a certain area, whether that's ultrasound, whether that's dentistry, whether that's, you know, the, the, I dare say more sexy things like, you know, orthopaedic surgery or, you know, the things that get all of the TV time, if you will.

But, but I know from both of us we would actively encourage everybody to seek out what it is that they're good at, that they enjoy, and that, do you know what, that will bring them. Fun and reward on a daily basis, so Camilla, thank you so much for telling everybody about your journey and for your, your bits of advice. If I could get you to finish on one tip.

How on earth do you find the pancreas with an ultrasound scanner? I thought this was summing up now. Well, I, there's a good meme going around on the internet with, someone lying down on a patterned floor with the pattern, same pattern dress, and it's pretty much that.

That really sums up about finding pans. Yeah, and I think that sort of, you know, that investment, that time. That repetitive, you know, going back to any opportunity, to do these things is, is always gonna be rewarding.

Yeah. But Camilla, it's great to chat. Thank you so much for everything you're doing for the profession.

Best of luck with with first opinion veterinary ultrasound moving forwards. And I would actively encourage anyone, whether you're a vet, whether you're a nurse, whether you're a practise who have got any questions. Series, random bits of knowledge that you either have or need about ultrasound machines, please, please do get in touch with Camilla.

And I know, you know, much as though I'm passionate about helping people on different things, that Camilla has a real passion and knowledge on this topic. So Camilla, it's great to chat. Thanks very much, Ben.